Ask The Experts

[Dan]

I literally just got home. We lost power a dozen times for a second or three today due to storms. (Remember, we are "rural") The computer was on the log-in screen. The mouse wouldn't work, nor would the keyboard. 3 monitors were down. Had to hard-boot. Luckily, I know that I saved all open work before I left this morning.

*THIS* is what I don't want to come home to, and why I needed a UPS.

Also, I got the cybersomething 1500. I'll post a link later, after a few beers....

[Stan]

I use a pair (2 rooms) of CyberPower PR1500LCD. They weigh a ton and cost too much; but they've never let me down.

[Dan]

I got a Cyberpower 1500 va AVR. Hell, I may even hook it up sometime this weekend....

[westom]

Aug 18, 2017 16:56:25 GMT -5 Dan said:

I literally just got home. We lost power a dozen times for a second or three today due to storms. (Remember, we are "rural") The computer was on the log-in screen. The mouse wouldn't work, nor would the keyboard. 3 monitors were down. Had to hard-boot. 

Why would anyone leave a computer on when not using it?

A common answer is to avoid a reboot.  Then use hibernate.  Leaving it on all day is silly - and may even shorten its life expectancy.

[Dan]

I misspoke. The monitors go off in 30 minutes. The machine goes into hibernation at 60 minutes. Which still wouldn't prevent an issue when I lost power, nor would it have helped the reason that I bought a UPS.

[westom]

Aug 18, 2017 10:20:39 GMT -5 Stan said:

That's somewhat true; but it's very dependent on the specific UPS chosen.

Zero reasons exist to believe an adjacent UPS protects hardware.

This 120 volt UPS is promoted as a pure sine wave UPS.  It has a somewhat pure sine wave when connected to AC mains.  In battery backup mode, it outputs 200 volt square waves with spikes up to 270 volts.  They did not lie.  We all learned this in high school math.  Square waves and spikes are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves.

Why is that UPS perfectly good?  Square waves and spike are perfectly good power for electronics (and problematic for what are less robust motorized appliances).

No UPS outputs a pure sine wave.  Everything always has perspective.  An honest UPS manufacturer provides spec numbers (ie %THD) that defines how 'dirty' their sine wave is.  There is no truly pure sine wave as the  deceitful would have us believe.  Any informed consumer always demands spec numbers.  That is the only place a manufacturer cannot lie.

[Shell]

Way back when I did side IT work for fun and "fun" money, I had an assistant who was willing to work with me - more for the experience than the money. I suppose I should call it an apprenticeship. One of my projects was to move an office and get all things IT working, so Philly-Dan was also enlisted on that to deal with the phone system (he has much more experience there than I do). And I convinced the client to outsource another company to run network cable drops. (Something else I *can* do, but folks who do it every day are faster and much, much less expensive.)

So it's showtime - starting Friday after business hours. We moved all of the desktop and network equipment and I'd found a really good price on a small APC UPS. It was only enough to keep the file/print server running long enough for a gentle shutdown, but for $75 in 2004, it was a nice bit of equipment which met the need. So three adults with a cooler full of beer started plugging stuff in and powering it on. My apprentice wanted to handle all of the network equipment - no big deal, right? While running the sanity check with my checklist (second pair of eyes and documentation) I realized that the UPS wasn't powered on. I pushed the power button. Nothing. Double checked that the management software was installed. By then, Micro Center (local retail store) was closed. :::deep sigh::: So I found the box and prepared to exchange it first thing the next morning. THAT'S when I realized that the UPS was plugged into itself, not a wall outlet. "Um, Mikey honey? Would you come here for a second? I think there's an issue with the UPS." Figuring I'd let him troubleshoot it for his own experience - not to beat up on him for a rookie mistake. Impressively, it only took him about 10 seconds to realize what he'd done. "It happens to the best of us. Wanna try this again?" - With a huge grin. I was more amused than annoyed. Needless to say, I doubt he ever made that mistake again.

See my blog for this morning's adventure with power and batteries...

[Stan]

Aug 19, 2017 9:20:51 GMT -5 @westom said:

Aug 18, 2017 10:20:39 GMT -5 Stan said:

That's somewhat true; but it's very dependent on the specific UPS chosen.

Zero reasons exist to believe an adjacent UPS protects hardware.

This 120 volt UPS is promoted as a pure sine wave UPS.  It has a somewhat pure sine wave when connected to AC mains.  In battery backup mode, it outputs 200 volt square waves with spikes up to 270 volts.  They did not lie.  We all learned this in high school math.  Square waves and spikes are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves.

Why is that UPS perfectly good?  Square waves and spike are perfectly good power for electronics (and problematic for what are less robust motorized appliances).

No UPS outputs a pure sine wave.  Everything always has perspective.  An honest UPS manufacturer provides spec numbers (ie %THD) that defines how 'dirty' their sine wave is.  There is no truly pure sine wave as the  deceitful would have us believe.  Any informed consumer always demands spec numbers.  That is the only place a manufacturer cannot lie.

An informed consumer may use high school math and spec numbers, I used an oscilloscope and an engineering degree to track down a ground loop that was causing hum and crosstalk in my audio gear. The (admittedly imperfect) sine wave I get from the ups is significantly better than my line power (less frequency drift with zero spikes or drops). It also seems that it's difficult to get a good ground when your home is built on a million tons of rock. I could see interference in one line when I powered up another.

I've got a long history of blown appliances due to power issues, with zero failures on UPS attached gear (refrigerators, well pumps, and cordless phones for some reason). I'm a believer.

Dan, the UPS you chose should be overkill for what you need, as long as you don't plug in a laser printer (I like overkill).

I suspect that Char, you, and I could have a crappy rural power contest. I presently have one of these sitting in my driveway, awaiting Tue installation. More overkill; but when your spouse is on medical Oxygen, the consequences of a power failure go up a bit. 

[Dan]

I'm a big fan of overkill....

[Juli]

Aug 19, 2017 10:11:28 GMT -5 Stan said:

I suspect that Char, you, and I could have a crappy rural power contest. I presently have one of these sitting in my driveway, awaiting Tue installation. More overkill; but when your spouse is on medical Oxygen, the consequences of a power failure go up a bit. 

Is that really the URL you wanted? I get an error that I have to be logged in to see whatever is there. "The Evolution of Humanity, Sexuality and Philosophy" Just what do they sell there?

[Char]

Aug 19, 2017 10:11:28 GMT -5 Stan said:

I suspect that Char, you, and I could have a crappy rural power contest. I presently have one of these sitting in my driveway, awaiting Tue installation. More overkill; but when your spouse is on medical Oxygen, the consequences of a power failure go up a bit. 

I'll never know what your link would show me because they're insisting on my allowing them to use cookies. Nope.

I have two satellite dishes on my garage roof. One for TV and one for computer. They're pointing southeast. By eyeballing it, it appears once the trees on the hilltop grow a bit more I'll lose my signals. My land doesn't go to the top of those hills so I'll probably need to find out who owns that land and ask them if I can have those tree pruned dramatically. If I could get fiber optics I'd do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, they require 50 homes per mile to make fiber optics profitable. I'll be long dead before that can happen.

[Stan]

Ehh, cut & paste failure.



Generac 25 Kw protector

[westom]

Aug 19, 2017 9:19:51 GMT -5 Dan said:

The machine goes into hibernation at 60 minutes. Which still wouldn't prevent an issue when I lost power, nor would it have helped the reason that I bought a UPS.

If that machine hibernated. then it is completely powered off. UPS does nothing. Apparently you have confused 'Sleep' with 'Hibernate'.  Those are two completely different states.  Consult Window's 'Help' for details.  Better is to hibernate when done.

UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved.  It does nothing to protect hardware and does nothing to protect saved data.  Best is to shutdown or hibernate when done.  Sleep mode is similar to leaving a computer still on (but consuming less power).

[westom]

Aug 19, 2017 10:11:28 GMT -5 Stan said:

I've got a long history of blown appliances due to power issues, with zero failures on UPS attached gear (refrigerators, well pumps, and cordless phones for some reason). I'm a believer.

If an engineer (with sufficient experience), then you know cherry picking is how junk science is created.  For your conclusion to be credible, then every other appliance not on that UPS must be damaged.  If any appliance not on a UPS is undamaged, then your conclusions are based in junk science.  Ignoring some appliances that contradict your conclusion is junk science.

Discuss what we engineers see constantly.  A surge current inside is hunting destructive for earth ground.  It selects which appliances make a best connection to earth.  It leaves other appliances undamaged.  Nothing new here.  This concept was taught to everyone in elementary school science. If a surge is incoming to an appliance, then that current, at the exact same time, must be outgoing via some other path.  Otherwise no surge current is inside (damaging) that appliance.

So which appliances make a best connection to earth?  Refrigerator, well pump, and cordless phone.  Meaning near zero joules in a UPS and its attached appliance are not conducting any surge current.

If an engineer, then I read specification numbers in your post.  None posted.  That alone is sufficient to doubt your engineer's credentials.  If an engineer, then you know why a surge incoming to everything is only outgoing via some appliances.  And why those damaged appliances even protect a near zero joule UPS.

If an engineer, then how surge protection is done in every facility that cannot have damage is well understood. Terms such as equipotential, longitudinal and metallic mode, and impedance apply.  And you are discussing numbers such as hundreds of thousands of joules and 50,000 amps.

An engineer also knows what everyone was taught in school science.  A conclusion only based in observation is classic junk science reasoning.

[MalcolmR]

Just reviewing my questions for tonights pub quiz and I find this:-

41. Which was the first US state to enter the Union? Delaware (1787)

Some clever sod is going to ask how it could be a union if there was only one state in it. (Or at least, I would!)

Any clever answers?

[Juli]

Yeah, that is an odd wording. It was the first to ratify the Constitution.

[MalcolmR]

Aug 20, 2017 7:10:05 GMT -5 Juli said:

Yeah, that is an odd wording. It was the first to ratify the Constitution.

Thanks Juli. C&P'd to my answer sheet!

[Juli]

It was the only state in the Union for 5 days, then Pennsylvania ratified, with New Jersey about a week later.

[mollypop]

And unless you've lived in Delaware like I have, you may be unaware that Delaware is also called 'the Diamond State'. Little trivia for your pub mates...

“The Diamond State”: This nickname was given to Delaware, according to legend, by Thomas Jefferson because he described Delaware as a "jewel" among states due to its strategic location on the Eastern Seaboard.

- L -

[MalcolmR]

What astonished me even more is that somebody got the answer right!!

[martycanuck]

Aug 19, 2017 21:56:40 GMT -5 @westom said:

Aug 19, 2017 10:11:28 GMT -5 Stan said:

I've got a long history of blown appliances due to power issues, with zero failures on UPS attached gear (refrigerators, well pumps, and cordless phones for some reason). I'm a believer.

If an engineer (with sufficient experience), then you know cherry picking is how junk science is created.  For your conclusion to be credible, then every other appliance not on that UPS must be damaged.  If any appliance not on a UPS is undamaged, then your conclusions are based in junk science.  Ignoring some appliances that contradict your conclusion is junk science.

Discuss what we engineers see constantly.  A surge current inside is hunting destructive for earth ground.  It selects which appliances make a best connection to earth.  It leaves other appliances undamaged.  Nothing new here.  This concept was taught to everyone in elementary school science. If a surge is incoming to an appliance, then that current, at the exact same time, must be outgoing via some other path.  Otherwise no surge current is inside (damaging) that appliance.

So which appliances make a best connection to earth?  Refrigerator, well pump, and cordless phone.  Meaning near zero joules in a UPS and its attached appliance are not conducting any surge current.

If an engineer, then I read specification numbers in your post.  None posted.  That alone is sufficient to doubt your engineer's credentials.  If an engineer, then you know why a surge incoming to everything is only outgoing via some appliances.  And why those damaged appliances even protect a near zero joule UPS.

If an engineer, then how surge protection is done in every facility that cannot have damage is well understood. Terms such as equipotential, longitudinal and metallic mode, and impedance apply.  And you are discussing numbers such as hundreds of thousands of joules and 50,000 amps.

An engineer also knows what everyone was taught in school science.  A conclusion only based in observation is classic junk science reasoning.

WIth all respect why shouldn't we doubt your credentials? You have 5 posts here. 99.9% of the members on this board have known each other for quite some time now both online and also in person. I'm not interested in the UPS debate but I do know that Stan knows what he's talking about.

[Stan]

Aug 21, 2017 11:38:05 GMT -5 martycanuck said:

WIth all respect why shouldn't we doubt your credentials? You have 5 posts here. 99.9% of the members on this board have known each other for quite some time now both online and also in person. I'm not interested in the UPS debate but I do know that Stan knows what he's talking about.

Thanks; but it's not necessary to defend me. I tend to back off contentious topics after 3 posts. Arguing on the internet and all.

In this case we're talking several different things. Wescom is accurate; but is focused on surges. My crappy power and presumably Dan's is an matter of drops and brownouts with ugly recovery. My use of an oscilloscope was related to ground loops and their impact on audio*, I just happened to see the waveform coming off my ups.

Dan's issue is resolved, we can go back to calling each other f'ing liberals and/or Trumptards



* Pro tip, if you need a decent ground but live on top of granite, drive a stake in your septic leech field.

[Jeannette]

I have a question pertaining to the eclipse today.

Everybody is saying don't look at the sun during the eclipse as it will cause damage. Is it different and/or stronger than just a normal day? It hurts to look directly at the sun normally.

Or is it that people are stupid and think because it's darker because of the eclipse they won't get damage?

[Stan]

Aug 21, 2017 12:56:21 GMT -5 Jeannette said:

Or is it that people are stupid and think because it's darker because of the eclipse they won't get damage?

This.

The UV that causes damage is still there, the intensity of light that causes you to look away is not. The sun hasn't changed, just your ability to stand looking at it.

[Jeannette]

Kind of figured that's what it was.

[stevenjmcd]

Looking at the projected path of totality for the 2024 total eclipse, our place will be right in the middle of it. We were in Chicago (Highland Park) for this one, and it was less dramatic, less spectacular, than we’d hoped… the cloud cover didn’t help. It wasn’t like Carbondale where they had the totality effect. Only seven years away, so maybe I’ll (we’ll) still be around to enjoy the spectacle.

[martycanuck]

Aug 21, 2017 12:45:12 GMT -5 Stan said:

Aug 21, 2017 11:38:05 GMT -5 martycanuck said:

WIth all respect why shouldn't we doubt your credentials? You have 5 posts here. 99.9% of the members on this board have known each other for quite some time now both online and also in person. I'm not interested in the UPS debate but I do know that Stan knows what he's talking about.

Thanks; but it's not necessary to defend me. I tend to back off contentious topics after 3 posts. Arguing on the internet and all.

In this case we're talking several different things. Wescom is accurate; but is focused on surges. My crappy power and presumably Dan's is an matter of drops and brownouts with ugly recovery. My use of an oscilloscope was related to ground loops and their impact on audio*, I just happened to see the waveform coming off my ups.

Dan's issue is resolved, we can go back to calling each other f'ing liberals and/or Trumptards



* Pro tip, if you need a decent ground but live on top of granite, drive a stake in your septic leech field.

Sorry Stan I didn't mean it to sound like that. I meant to come across as "this is not a place where we really argue (and reargue) the minutae with the exception of the political threads. 

[frodi]

Just how crappy is Windoze 10?
My office PC dragged to a crrraaawll this morning. I even opened it up to check for dust etc on the fan. When I closed it up it ran fine again but on checking I was surprised to find that it is now over 3 years old.
So I am hunting a new one. But I am a die hard Windoze 7 man. The till and dispensary server are running 7 as they still can't get the software to run on Win 8. My office PC is Win 8 using a shell program so it looks and feels like 7.
All I can find so far is Win 10. I'll have enough grief transferring all my accumulated crap (think 14 years worth of emails, re-installing the payroll software and restoring backups without having to go on a learning curve for Win 10 at the same time.
So will I have to bite the bullet and learn Win 10 or is there some magic voodoo that can turn Win 10 to 7 or 8?

[stevenjmcd]

Win10 is a more traditional-feeling OS than Win8. If you liked Win7, Win10 should feel like a natural, minor change, similar to the change from Win95 to Win98 or 98 to XP. I hated Win8, and never had a system with it installed, though I worked on dozens of systems with that (P)OS. All but one of my personal systems are now Win10 (a piece of legacy software precludes at the moment).

[westom]

Aug 22, 2017 15:52:50 GMT -5 frodi said:

Just how crappy is Windoze 10?

Microsoft began giving away upgrades to eliminate so many poor products created by Steve Balmer.  Under Gates, MSFT innovated.  Windows Vista, 7, and 8 had so little improvement and required so much customer support that Microsoft offered free upgrades to Windows 10.  Even those dumb tiles were a Balmer creation (mistake).

Gates comes from where the work get done.  So he could empower the innovators.  Balmer is a business school graduate.  So he is stuck on obsolete concepts.  Balmer even insisted that the MS phone must have a keyboard.  Even Surface (developed in Gate's time) demonstrated a keyboard was not essential.  Everything in MSFT created in Balmer's ten years was a disaster or a seriously compromised product. That includes those nasty and confusing Balmer OSes before Windows 10.  They even put back a Start button that Balmer removed.