graham
Lieutenant
Posts: 4,117
|
Post by graham on Jul 23, 2020 6:21:48 GMT -5
What is staggering is the number of people I've seen posting videos of themselves wearing "face coverings" that are like fishnet and chortling about how clever they are in obeying the letter of the regulations whilst protecting their "freedom"...
... freedom to catch and spread a potentially lethal disease.
Of course the fact that this has happened elsewhere on Planet Earth has no relevance to Planet USA...
|
|
mank
Lieutenant
Posts: 8,211
|
Post by mank on Jul 23, 2020 9:23:01 GMT -5
I follow Mike Rowe on Twitter and on Facebook. He had and recently rebooted, a show on TV called Dirty Jobs. He voiced his opinion about the Corona virus after a person questioned why he was doing the show again during the pandemic which she believed was irresponsible. Mike quoted this doctor Dr. Osterholm is the Director of Infectious Disease Research and Policy (This is a video that is an hour long but worth watching.) But, to summarize, from Mike Rowe's post, Doctor Osterholm is the epidemiologist who ten years ago, predicted a coronavirus would come from China and turn our country upside down. In his book “Deadliest Enemies,” he described the utterly irresponsible way in which the media would report on the situation, the completely opportunistic and shamelessly political way our leaders would likely react, and the unprecedented chaos and confusion that would arise from all the mixed messages from the medical community. His resume is unexampled, bit.ly/3jvzQTW, and his analysis of the situation is the most logical and persuasive of any I’d heard so far. He’s also the only expert I know of who hasn’t walked back his numbers, reconsidered his position, or moved the goalposts with regard to what we must do, what we can do, and what he expects to happen next. I say all of this because Dr. Osterholm also predicted that we could easily see 100 million COVID cases in this country, with a very strong possibility of 480,000 fatalities – even if we successfully “flattened the curve.” Mr. Rowe went on to say, "Again, don’t misunderstand. I’m not ignoring COVID, and I’m not pretending the risks at hand aren’t real. I don’t want to get this disease and give it to someone else, any more than I want to be in a car wreck and hurt someone else. So, I take precautions. I get tested often. If I can’t distance, I wear a mask – especially around higher risk people. I also wear a seat belt, obey the speed limits, and check my mirrors before changing lanes. I’m aware that we’d all be a lot safer if we kept our cars in the garage. I’m also aware we’d be a lot safer if we all kept ourselves in the house. But that’s not why cars, or people, exist. Anyway Darlene, that’s a long way of saying that I have accepted Dr. Osterholm’s numbers, and now, after three months of acceptance, I’ve made a decision on how I wish to live my life. Sooner or later, you will too. We all will."
|
|
Rob
Lieutenant
Posts: 1,884
|
Post by Rob on Jul 23, 2020 9:37:20 GMT -5
Not in these exact words, Graham once asked me, "When the second American civil war breaks out, how will you know who is who?"
The answer just came to me. When the second American civil war breaks out, which might be soon if things keep going the way they are, it will be the Masked Vs the Unmasked. The Masked will have an advantage. The Unmasked will be dying by the hundreds off the battle field, because they believe the scientists who recommend mask wearing are part of a conspiracy to control people.
|
|
Rob
Lieutenant
Posts: 1,884
|
Post by Rob on Jul 23, 2020 9:43:29 GMT -5
|
|
Gimpy
Lieutenant
Posts: 6,390
|
Post by Gimpy on Jul 23, 2020 10:16:29 GMT -5
That's exactly what needs to be done and is recommended by all the medical folks.
|
|
|
Post by Jeannette on Jul 23, 2020 11:52:43 GMT -5
I follow him also and I get where he's coming from. At this time I'm limiting where I go and I do wear a mask. I don't want to get to sick and I don't want to risk spreading it to my Dad.
|
|
|
Post by martycanuck on Jul 23, 2020 20:03:10 GMT -5
I like Mike Rowe. I think he’s underselling it slightly but overall I understand and agree with his stance.
I agree we can’t stop the world to eradicate this virus. It won’t work. We do have to do all we can to manage it.
|
|
Rob
Lieutenant
Posts: 1,884
|
Post by Rob on Jul 27, 2020 18:09:08 GMT -5
|
|
graham
Lieutenant
Posts: 4,117
|
Post by graham on Jul 28, 2020 11:36:31 GMT -5
Not to mention if you believe it's being spread by 5G mobile phone towers...!
|
|
graham
Lieutenant
Posts: 4,117
|
Post by graham on Jul 31, 2020 15:07:08 GMT -5
|
|
Rob
Lieutenant
Posts: 1,884
|
Post by Rob on Aug 3, 2020 18:57:47 GMT -5
The Tigers are supposed to be playing the St. Louis Cardinals right now, but the entire series is postponed because Cardinal players and staff have Covid-19.. It was going to be five games against the Cardinals this week, one day was going to be a doubleheader.
|
|
Rob
Lieutenant
Posts: 1,884
|
Post by Rob on Aug 4, 2020 9:43:20 GMT -5
A cousin posted on Facebook yesterday that he was at the doctor's office talking to a nurse about Covid, and she told him they hadn't had anyone test positive since April. He takes this as confirmation that the virus is a joke.
Meanwhile, a guy I've known since preschool reports that his grandpa is in the hospital fighting Covid and they almost lost him on Saturday. I guess he's past the worst of it now, but he's still not out of the woods.
|
|
Rob
Lieutenant
Posts: 1,884
|
Post by Rob on Aug 4, 2020 11:07:53 GMT -5
|
|
Ben
Lieutenant
Posts: 457
|
Post by Ben on Aug 4, 2020 17:03:01 GMT -5
I don't know why I'm dumb enough to respond again, but here we are. The last line in that thing you quoted did it. "This crisis should have been OVER months ago..." No. That's not what lockdowns do. That's not what social distancing and masks are for. Do you not remember "flatten the curve"? What does flatten the curve mean? It means we take the huge spike and SPREAD IT OUT OVER A LONGER TIME. All of the measures we've taken are meant to make COVID last longer. Flatten the curve. Spread the spike. Reduce the crisis by spreading it out over a longer period of time. They've been saying this from the beginning, but people don't pay attention.
Nothing will stop COVID except herd immunity. Period. Whether that's from a vaccine or from enough people being infected, that's the only time this will be over. I'm fine with flattening the curve by distancing and masks (because people are too inconsiderate to cover their coughs) so the ICUs are able to handle demand. But those saying that we can defeat this by wearing a cloth mask are nothing short of ignorant. That's simply not how viruses work. Maybe you can keep a symptomatic person from spreading as many droplets when they cough, but a cloth mask does absolutely nothing for a non-symptomatic person (e.g. one who is not coughing/sneezing). The pores are far too big to stop airborne spread of a virus. Even the N95 mask I wear on the ambulance, filtering down to 0.2 microns, has holes 0.05 microns larger than the virus. The virus will spread. Nothing except our immune systems will stop it. Death happens. People hate hearing that there's nothing you can really do to prevent it, so the government comes up with all kinds of things to keep them from panicking. It's ineffective but makes people feel better. Yes, I wear my mask everywhere, for the sake of the feelings of those around me. Even though I know it does nothing.
|
|
Rob
Lieutenant
Posts: 1,884
|
Post by Rob on Aug 4, 2020 18:16:21 GMT -5
I don't know why I'm dumb enough to respond again Because you're dumb? It means we take the huge spike and SPREAD IT OUT OVER A LONGER TIME. Which we're not doing. The virus will spread. Nothing except our immune systems will stop it. Death happens. People hate hearing that there's nothing you can really do to prevent it, so the government comes up with all kinds of things to keep them from panicking. It's ineffective but makes people feel better.
|
|
mank
Lieutenant
Posts: 8,211
|
Post by mank on Aug 6, 2020 8:23:58 GMT -5
Rob,
I don't think that Ben was saying it is a conspiracy cooked up by the government. Ben is saying that cotton masks will allow the small particles of the coronavirus to pass through it. He is also saying the N95 mask he wears won't stop the coronavirus. The virus isn't going away anytime soon we "might" be able to slow it down but it seems with the recent surges we can't. I do believe the doctor that Mike Rowe quoted that said 100 million people will get the virus and 480,000 people will die. The 480,000 people dying is sad but it is only a small percentage of the population in the USA. I agree with Ben's statement that the government's actions are trying to placate the masses but in reality nothing they say or do will stop the virus. Until there is a vaccine or people are exposed and build up antibodies against the virus most of the measures, including masks, are a waste of time. Again, I wear a mask just to put others at ease but I think it is ridiculous. I have gone back to my office since my company started a voluntary back to work program. We have to check our temperature when we come in the door and it can't be over 100.4 degrees. If it is we have to turn around and leave. While in our cubicles we are supposed to wear a mask but to be honest most people take them off while sitting since it is hard to sit there with a mask on for 8 hours. Additionally, when people drink their coffee, or eat a snack, or lunch at their desks the mask is off. Now, when people walk around they have the mask on and we are supposed to social distance from each other which people are following. But, again in reality, are we stopping the spread of the virus? We only have 18 people total in my office in a company, Raytheon Technologies, that employs over 195,000 people world wide. Bottom line, I don't believe it is a conspiracy and that isn't what Ben was saying either. The virus will live on just like the flu does and some people will catch it and recover while others die. It is the same with the flu, people get the flu, most recover but some die from the flu. \
|
|
|
Post by martycanuck on Aug 6, 2020 9:18:42 GMT -5
I won’t disagree that it isn’t going away soon. But there are steps you can take to reduce the spread (and spread it will without measures). Our two countries are examples of both extremes. Canada has gotten it in check so far. US, not so much. I blame general distrust of Gov’t and people who think their “rights” are being infringed upon when asked to wear a mask. They are just plain selfish bastards.
|
|
Stan
Smartass
Posts: 1,494
|
Post by Stan on Aug 6, 2020 9:20:39 GMT -5
The wearing of cotton masks is about stopping the transmission at the source, rather than the destination. My mask protects you, your mask protects me. You're all aware of that, it's been posted here and nearly everywhere else, you just choose to make an invalid argument.
There's a reason that most first world countries are doing better than the US when it comes to stopping the spread of the virus.
|
|
mank
Lieutenant
Posts: 8,211
|
Post by mank on Aug 6, 2020 9:55:29 GMT -5
Not sure what the invalid argument is, a mask will slow down the distance a virus will travel but the virus can still travel through the mask. I think that is the point Ben was making. And, sitting at my desk at work when nobody is within a good 20 feet or more of me is a bit ridiculous. That is why most people in my office take them off when they are at their desks. We do have protocols in place that we have to wipe down our work area with disinfectant wipes for the areas we touched, mouse, keyboard, computers, laptops, etc. when we leave to go home. And again, nobody is going into my work area and touching my equipment nor am I going into anyone else's area and touching items in their workspace. But, we have to wipe down everything as a requirement for working in the office. I personally, don't mind doing any of that since it is good to see my colleagues again in person after four plus months.
|
|
Stan
Smartass
Posts: 1,494
|
Post by Stan on Aug 6, 2020 10:34:54 GMT -5
Masks aren't intended to filter out the virus, they are intended to filter out aerosol droplets that contain the virus. This works better at the source.
|
|
Gimpy
Lieutenant
Posts: 6,390
|
Post by Gimpy on Aug 6, 2020 10:50:07 GMT -5
The mask will also filter out the larger droplets that you encounter. Not all the virus droplets are the tiny ones. The mask is not useless and does provide some protection.
If the N95 mask didn't work we would have no health care workers left!
|
|
Jim
Lieutenant
Posts: 2,048
|
Post by Jim on Aug 6, 2020 12:25:08 GMT -5
|
|
Gimpy
Lieutenant
Posts: 6,390
|
Post by Gimpy on Aug 6, 2020 12:52:47 GMT -5
|
|
frodi
Lieutenant
Posts: 19,396
|
Post by frodi on Aug 6, 2020 13:30:28 GMT -5
For me masks are about reducing the chances that you get it or that you might pass it on. No absolutes in this world but some consideration for you fellow man goes a long way. It may not stop you from getting the virus but it does reduce the chances that you might pass it on the your eldery relative or neighbour.
Do you refuse to wear a seat belt or do you turn off the air bags in your car?
Very few rights are absolute. You (USAians) defend your second amendment right but does it extend to criminals?
|
|
Rob
Lieutenant
Posts: 1,884
|
Post by Rob on Aug 6, 2020 18:24:13 GMT -5
Robert J. Sawyer is a Canadian writer. The scene he described happened in Mississauga, near Toronto, but the same attitudes are everywhere.
Claiming that masks are a government ploy to keep people from panicking is just as ridiculous as claiming the virus is a conspiracy. The whole world is in this together. CDC and WHO recommend the masks. I take their word for it.
Jim, any one of those masks would do you just fine. As long as it covers your nose and mouth, you're good.
|
|
graham
Lieutenant
Posts: 4,117
|
Post by graham on Aug 7, 2020 18:55:49 GMT -5
I don't know if the figures given are precisely accurate, but quibbling about whether they are or not would be to miss the point that Masks protect *others* from you if you don't know you're contagious (and vice versa).
|
|
Rob
Lieutenant
Posts: 1,884
|
Post by Rob on Aug 7, 2020 20:10:07 GMT -5
Meanwhile, a guy I've known since preschool reports that his grandpa is in the hospital fighting Covid and they almost lost him on Saturday. I guess he's past the worst of it now, but he's still not out of the woods. His grandpa just died today.
|
|
Stan
Smartass
Posts: 1,494
|
Post by Stan on Aug 7, 2020 21:06:10 GMT -5
I like this diagram better. Numbers are always suspect.
|
|
Ben
Lieutenant
Posts: 457
|
Post by Ben on Aug 7, 2020 22:16:03 GMT -5
I like this diagram better. Numbers are always suspect.
Urine isn't really an accurate comparison. When you find pants that stop a fart, let me know. Scent particles are much larger than virus particles. My N95 stops scents, no problem. Cotton cloth... not so much.
Masks will stop a cough or sneeze. They will not stop aerosolized, asymptomatic transmission. This continues to be true no matter how many times the news says it, and no matter how many times people pass around clever memes.
|
|
|
Post by martycanuck on Aug 7, 2020 22:35:02 GMT -5
I like this diagram better. Numbers are always suspect.
Urine isn't really an accurate comparison. When you find pants that stop a fart, let me know. Scent particles are much larger than virus particles. My N95 stops scents, no problem. Cotton cloth... not so much.
Masks will stop a cough or sneeze. They will not stop aerosolized, asymptomatic transmission. This continues to be true no matter how many times the news says it, and no matter how many times people pass around clever memes.
That’s really weird because countries where the populations have voluntarily masked up and social-distanced have the virus spread considerably more contained than.....um certain other countries.
|
|