Rob
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Posts: 1,921
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Post by Rob on Mar 22, 2020 18:57:11 GMT -5
I'm glad you're not in a leadership position. Ummm, there are how many people in your company Marty? I meant on a government level. But if he is leading his 45 employees to panic, that's not a good thing.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 22, 2020 19:33:34 GMT -5
No, I am realistic and I understand a few things about the human animal. Survival instincts are strong in people. Not one person on this planet other than possibly your immediate families gives a single rats ass over your life versus theirs. Bullshit, Marty. I can be concerned about this crisis without thinking it necessary to deprive my follow citizens of supplies they need to survive. You are not a realistic. You are a paranoid, panicky fool, and I'm disgusted with you right now. If you would rather see people panicking and buying up supplies that other people need to survive this, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. That would also make you a hypocrite, because it flies in the face of your previous positions of giving a shit about other people.
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Post by martycanuck on Mar 22, 2020 20:11:13 GMT -5
This will very likely change the entire world in a very significant way. We all thought “hey things are pretty good. We’re pretty safe.” Then this. You know we've been through this before, right? As in, recent history? Look up the 1918 Spanish Flu. I've seen articles from that time period which read as if they're written today. Cities closing, people told to stay home, everything. How much has Spanish Flu affected your life today? And that was way, way bigger than COVID-19 is.
We will adapt and overcome. A few years from now, this will be a faded memory for most.
Please. For your sake and ours, turn off the television, log out of Facebook, and find a nice spot to read some books for the next few weeks. If it IS the end of the world, that's a better way to go out anyway.
Sorry, I intend to take this seriously as a threat to humans. Know what is different about now versus Spanish Flu? The population density in major cities. . That might be a factor in an even worse spread of the disease. To flip the perspective Rob says that I am creating panic. I am not doing that. I am engaging in discussion. From my point of view Rob has failed to understand how serious a threat this virus really is to all people and is still in a state of shock at the people who are preparing to hunker down for the long haul. Never mind this 2 weeks BS they have been feeding us. They told us 2 weeks because they were worried that if they told us 6 months the “panic” buying would have been much, much worse. So they soft sold it to warm us up to the idea of hunkering down and now that time frame will get stretched and stretched. Don’t judge me on this until you see the results please and honestly I would really love to be wrong. If you choose to ignore information that is up to you. This is going to be quite a bit worse than many people are prepared to believe. It takes ONE undetected infection to cause a new flare up the minute we relax social distancing and quarantining protocols. Don’t want to see info on this? Then stay the hell out of the thread for discussing it might be a good start for you. Lord knows the moron Trump isn’t interested in understanding the situation.
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Post by martycanuck on Mar 22, 2020 20:17:35 GMT -5
No, I am realistic and I understand a few things about the human animal. Survival instincts are strong in people. Not one person on this planet other than possibly your immediate families gives a single rats ass over your life versus theirs. Bullshit, Marty. I can be concerned about this crisis without thinking it necessary to deprive my follow citizens of supplies they need to survive. You are not a realistic. You are a paranoid, panicky fool, and I'm disgusted with you right now. If you would rather see people panicking and buying up supplies that other people need to survive this, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. That would also make you a hypocrite, because it flies in the face of your previous positions of giving a shit about other people. Where the fuck did I say anything like that? I’m not encouraging it. I said I understand the human psyche that is driving it is what I said. If you don’t then sorry for that. I am not participating in nor suggesting anyone horde anything. You’ve got a mindset that I am and you are reading things in my written words that I am not saying. Yeah I’ve bought a wee bit extra of a few supplies but I’m not a guy who is emptying out a store or rushing to a local market that someone on FB said has TP. I don’t recall if I posted it here or not be there was an article I read that said it’s a natural response for people to do things when faced with something they can’t control to do things that give them some feeling of control and stock-piling was one of the things the person being quoted in the article said people will do. I have no idea where the source article is anymore so sorry for that. If you think I am encouraging stockpiling supplies to the detriment of others you are very seriously misguided. What I am doing is what is being suggested. Washing my hands frequently and not going out.
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Post by martycanuck on Mar 22, 2020 20:19:55 GMT -5
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Post by martycanuck on Mar 22, 2020 21:27:01 GMT -5
Just to be certain I just re-read every post I have made in this thread. Other than spotting a few typos I don’t see any post where I’ve done more than share info. Rob if you don’t want to read about Covid I guess you should not have started a thread about it. I thought a thread about being concerned about Coronavirus was a good place to express your concerns about coronavirus.
I do take exception when people say they are not concerned about it at all. You may not have concers for yourself but you could contract this disease and spread it to hundreds of people before you know you even have it yourself. I think that is a pretty reasonable concern.
I also consider JAD to be a close group of people who are friends almost bordering on family in some cases. I care for a lot of the people on JAD and if I have info I think will help them I am not holding it back.
Rob I have NEVER endorsed hoarding in this thread. Not once. I have said I understand the psyche in people that might cause them to do that. Back on page 2 or 3 is the article I referred to that describes the behaviour. Perhaps you didn’t read it.
Ben and Mank you may not be concerned about the virus. I’m not sure why. It’s having a pretty goddamn real impact on my business and my life. My 45 employees who are now laid off as required by NY State are feeling it. Why shouldn’t I be concerned about it?
I equate anyone who has no concern about the virus with the people we see on the news flaunting it because they don’t care if they get it or not. I wonder how they’ll feel when they give it to a loved one and that person subsequently dies either because the disease infects them that much or because the hospitals are so overwhelmed they cannot treat people? Will they feel so great about not taking it seriously then?
Ben I had some harsh words for you earlier. Probably unfair on my part. I’ve been under tremendous personal stress from this and many other things and I vented. But I still definitely believe anyone who does not take this seriously and does not take proper precautions does so at their own peril. Even if we handle this well there are going to be a lot of people that are going to die from it.
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Jim
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Post by Jim on Mar 22, 2020 21:37:28 GMT -5
It's been a long time since we've had a shit show on these boards. This is getting good!
Anybody got any popcorn? I'm all out.
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Post by kellylorraine on Mar 23, 2020 7:44:35 GMT -5
Anybody got any popcorn? I'm all out. I got more Saturday when I went shopping but you can't get close enough for me to share.
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Post by Jeannette on Mar 23, 2020 10:01:45 GMT -5
Well it's started. My company just let go about 30 people, stopped 401k matching, and cut salaries of everybody in the company.
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Stan
Smartass
Posts: 1,498
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Post by Stan on Mar 23, 2020 10:58:30 GMT -5
Anybody got any popcorn? I'm all out. Will I be accused of hoarding if I have a Costco sized bag of it? My eldest daughter works on the telemetry unit at a hospital. Last night she had to help put a 30yr old RN and co-worker on a ventilator due to coronavirus. My sister's hospital is changing their pediatrics unit into a negative pressure ICU. Even though she's in administration with a Masters in Nursing, she is expected to work on the floor through this. The hospital has had a death, already. My 93 yr old father lives with her. My wife (RN) has received a request to come out of retirement to work this (not a chance in hell with her breathing issues). If you aren't taking this seriously, you are part of the problem. What's the difference between hoarding and stocking up? I'm over 60 and have a wife on medical oxygen. It seems common sense to me to limit my trips out to the store.
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Rob
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Posts: 1,921
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Post by Rob on Mar 23, 2020 11:05:02 GMT -5
My cousin, who works for hospitals as an infection control and prevention specialist, sent this to me today.
Forwarding takeaways from the UCSF COVID-19 town hall this weekend - infectious diseases conference
1. If you’re exposed to COVID, you’re likely to see symptoms in about 2-9 days, with median of 5 days.
2. The common symptoms are acute respiratory distress and fever, often high, which may be intermittent but can be persistent and last over 10 days.
3. Breakdown of cases: About 80% of those who contract COVID only get mildly ill; 14% get hospital-ill, 6-8% critically ill. The mortality rate seems to be between 1-3%, but that needs to be adjusted for age. Mortality is 10-15% over 80, and drops lower for younger cohorts.
4. The bulk of those who fall ill are aged 40-55, with 50 being the median. But being young and healthy (zero medical problems) does NOT rule out serious illness or death; it may just delay the time course to developing significant respiratory illness by about a week or longer.
5. Findings confirm that COVID-19 is spread simply through breathing, even without coughing. It seems unlikely that contact with contaminated surfaces is a primary means of spread: "Don't forget about hand washing, but if you don't want to get infected, you can't be in crowds.”
6. The virus spreads by air and in droplets (sneezing and coughing), but also via fecal-oral transmission. This is where hand washing with soap is key. And try to eat only cooked foods if you didn’t prepare them yourself.
7. COVID likely originated in bats. But for those sharing rumors that COVID came from Chinese people eating them, researchers now believe it went from bats to another animal species before jumping to humans, and that fecal-oral transmission was the likely vector. WASH YOUR HANDS.
8. There are no real treatments for COVID yet. Remdesvir has shown signs of reducing mortality but it is in still in tests, is in short supply and only available under restriction. Steroids, a common treatment for respiratory illness, may make things worse.
9. The terminal phase of COVID is acute respiratory distress, treated by putting patients on a ventilator. We have 160K ventilators in the US. About 1M will need ventilators. Half will die in the first week; survivors stay on for 4 weeks. “We don’t have enough ventilators.”
10. This graphic is scary. Italy is already overwhelmed. Many countries are just days behind Italy on the case curve. The US is actually breaking the curve—because of the Trump admin’s mismanagement of the situation.
11. 40-70% of the US is likely to get the virus. Around 150 million is the UCSF estimate, with a 1% rate of mortality, which means 1.5 million Americans will likely die of this disease in the next 12-18 months. To put this in context: In 2019, 606,880 Americans died of cancer.
12. We are “past containment” at this point, experts say. The massive errors by this administration early on make it impossible to stop the spread—we can only slow it so healthcare can catch up. And no matter what anyone says: We won’t have a vaccine for at least 6 months. All we can do is maintain compassionate care to all!
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Gimpy
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Posts: 6,479
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Post by Gimpy on Mar 23, 2020 11:15:31 GMT -5
Rob, That's very informative and meshes well with everything I've looked at so far.
Following your thinking: "I don't know your cousin, so why should I believe any of it?"
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Jim
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Posts: 2,063
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Post by Jim on Mar 23, 2020 11:21:58 GMT -5
Well it's started. My company just let go about 30 people, stopped 401k matching, and cut salaries of everybody in the company. Did you get to keep your job? Being IT, I'm guessing yes.
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Rob
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Posts: 1,921
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Post by Rob on Mar 23, 2020 11:22:49 GMT -5
If you aren't taking this seriously, you are part of the problem. What's the difference between hoarding and stocking up? I'm over 60 and have a wife on medical oxygen. It seems common sense to me to limit my trips out to the store. The difference is people who need those supplies right now can't get them because a bunch of assholes are buying them up. If you are encouraging these assholes, then you are part of the problem.
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Stan
Smartass
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Post by Stan on Mar 23, 2020 11:52:47 GMT -5
First off, I'm not encouraging anyone to do anything other than take this seriously.
Second, it seems your definition of asshole is anyone that inconveniences you.
My wife is on medical oxygen due to decreased lung capacity (not COPD). Catching the flu is serious for her. Coronavirus affects lung capacity, both temporarily and permanently. I'm going to do what it takes to minimize her risks. That means limiting my contact with other people, including stores, by stocking up so I can go less often. If keeping my wife safe inconveniences you, I'm perfectly fine being labeled an asshole. It's hardly the first time.
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Rob
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Posts: 1,921
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Post by Rob on Mar 23, 2020 11:58:56 GMT -5
Following your thinking: "I don't know your cousin, so why should I believe any of it?" UCSF was the source. Marty posted a piece that had no name or information as to where it came from. It looked like a random thing he picked up on social media. I wasn't opposed to it, I just preferred to see an official source attached to it so I could confirm the information and make sure I wasn't spreading false information. Why was Marty's article anonymous?
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Post by martycanuck on Mar 23, 2020 12:28:13 GMT -5
Well it's started. My company just let go about 30 people, stopped 401k matching, and cut salaries of everybody in the company. Jeanette we have a big customer in MI and they just told us the Governor has ordered a shut down of non-essential business.
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Post by martycanuck on Mar 23, 2020 12:30:18 GMT -5
My cousin, who works for hospitals as an infection control and prevention specialist, sent this to me today. Forwarding takeaways from the UCSF COVID-19 town hall this weekend - infectious diseases conference 1. If you’re exposed to COVID, you’re likely to see symptoms in about 2-9 days, with median of 5 days. 2. The common symptoms are acute respiratory distress and fever, often high, which may be intermittent but can be persistent and last over 10 days. 3. Breakdown of cases: About 80% of those who contract COVID only get mildly ill; 14% get hospital-ill, 6-8% critically ill. The mortality rate seems to be between 1-3%, but that needs to be adjusted for age. Mortality is 10-15% over 80, and drops lower for younger cohorts. 4. The bulk of those who fall ill are aged 40-55, with 50 being the median. But being young and healthy (zero medical problems) does NOT rule out serious illness or death; it may just delay the time course to developing significant respiratory illness by about a week or longer. 5. Findings confirm that COVID-19 is spread simply through breathing, even without coughing. It seems unlikely that contact with contaminated surfaces is a primary means of spread: "Don't forget about hand washing, but if you don't want to get infected, you can't be in crowds.” 6. The virus spreads by air and in droplets (sneezing and coughing), but also via fecal-oral transmission. This is where hand washing with soap is key. And try to eat only cooked foods if you didn’t prepare them yourself. 7. COVID likely originated in bats. But for those sharing rumors that COVID came from Chinese people eating them, researchers now believe it went from bats to another animal species before jumping to humans, and that fecal-oral transmission was the likely vector. WASH YOUR HANDS. 8. There are no real treatments for COVID yet. Remdesvir has shown signs of reducing mortality but it is in still in tests, is in short supply and only available under restriction. Steroids, a common treatment for respiratory illness, may make things worse. 9. The terminal phase of COVID is acute respiratory distress, treated by putting patients on a ventilator. We have 160K ventilators in the US. About 1M will need ventilators. Half will die in the first week; survivors stay on for 4 weeks. “We don’t have enough ventilators.” 10. This graphic is scary. Italy is already overwhelmed. Many countries are just days behind Italy on the case curve. The US is actually breaking the curve—because of the Trump admin’s mismanagement of the situation. 11. 40-70% of the US is likely to get the virus. Around 150 million is the UCSF estimate, with a 1% rate of mortality, which means 1.5 million Americans will likely die of this disease in the next 12-18 months. To put this in context: In 2019, 606,880 Americans died of cancer. 12. We are “past containment” at this point, experts say. The massive errors by this administration early on make it impossible to stop the spread—we can only slow it so healthcare can catch up. And no matter what anyone says: We won’t have a vaccine for at least 6 months. All we can do is maintain compassionate care to all! What are you guys doing? Trying to create a panic situation???
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Post by martycanuck on Mar 23, 2020 12:32:55 GMT -5
Following your thinking: "I don't know your cousin, so why should I believe any of it?" UCSF was the source. Marty posted a piece that had no name or information as to where it came from. It looked like a random thing he picked up on social media. I wasn't opposed to it, I just preferred to see an official source attached to it so I could confirm the information and make sure I wasn't spreading false information. Why was Marty's article anonymous? Because I didn’t have the original link but it came from a source I trust. I keep getting called out for trying to share info that might help people. I’ve shared plenty here that did have sources. I declared that I did not have the source on that one but that the information in it corroborated with everything else I am seeing.
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Post by Jeannette on Mar 23, 2020 12:33:39 GMT -5
Well it's started. My company just let go about 30 people, stopped 401k matching, and cut salaries of everybody in the company. Did you get to keep your job? Being IT, I'm guessing yes. So far I'm ok. We did lose 1 in our dept. Depending on how things go it could be more down the line.
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Post by Jeannette on Mar 23, 2020 12:36:58 GMT -5
Well it's started. My company just let go about 30 people, stopped 401k matching, and cut salaries of everybody in the company. Jeanette we have a big customer in MI and they just told us the Governor has ordered a shut down of non-essential business. Yes she did. Most of the company has been working from home since last week. We provide fuel to gas stations on airports and airplanes so we're somewhat essential but we can do most of it remotely.
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Rob
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Posts: 1,921
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Post by Rob on Mar 23, 2020 12:50:07 GMT -5
Okay, never mind. I'm sorry that I lost my shit with Marty. That was unfair and I was being a jerk.
We're on a shelter-in-place order for three weeks. I can do that. Just hope I'm able to get the supplies when I need them. I'll try to have faith that the situation will be better at the end of three weeks, but it's hard not to think it's going to be worse no matter what we do.
Some people are worried about losing their homes. I don't think mortgage companies are going to be functioning much during this. So, I wouldn't worry about that. I'm more worried about starving because I'm unable to get food when I run out. Though grocery stores will stay open, I hope I can find everything I need.
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Jim
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Posts: 2,063
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Post by Jim on Mar 23, 2020 13:27:05 GMT -5
Maybe if someone in my world was immuno-compromised, I'd take this seriously. However, that's not the case. The government is treating this as a joke, so, I am too. Even if we just looked at US cases, there's not even 1% of the population impacted.
This virus is a joke.
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Rob
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Posts: 1,921
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Post by Rob on Mar 23, 2020 13:40:16 GMT -5
Well, my uncle was tested the other day, but I don't know the results yet.
I don't think this virus is a joke, never did.
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Jim
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Posts: 2,063
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Post by Jim on Mar 23, 2020 14:08:07 GMT -5
WHO reports that there are 300,000 cases world wide. Not even half a percent of the world population. Not even 100th of a percent. It's a joke.
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Rob
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Posts: 1,921
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Post by Rob on Mar 23, 2020 14:30:03 GMT -5
Yeah, but it's spreading fast. This sums up how I see it:
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Post by martycanuck on Mar 23, 2020 14:49:41 GMT -5
Okay, never mind. I'm sorry that I lost my shit with Marty. That was unfair and I was being a jerk. We're on a shelter-in-place order for three weeks. I can do that. Just hope I'm able to get the supplies when I need them. I'll try to have faith that the situation will be better at the end of three weeks, but it's hard not to think it's going to be worse no matter what we do. Some people are worried about losing their homes. I don't think mortgage companies are going to be functioning much during this. So, I wouldn't worry about that. I'm more worried about starving because I'm unable to get food when I run out. Though grocery stores will stay open, I hope I can find everything I need. Thanks Rob, glad we got this straightened out. I’ve got no ill will towards you. Mortgage relief will most certainly be addressed for those who need it. NY City has already forbidden evictions for non-payment of rent at a minimum and possibly more. You should find all the places you can and order supplies for delivery. We just got a box of stuff from Costco today which is mostly food, got laundry detergent too because we will need that of course.. Now this isn’t meal time food but it’s suff we could eat if we should end up in a desperate place which I hope we don’t. But other grocers are offering delivery. Even small places because they need to try and keep their businesses alive too.
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Post by martycanuck on Mar 23, 2020 14:53:14 GMT -5
Maybe if someone in my world was immuno-compromised, I'd take this seriously. However, that's not the case. The government is treating this as a joke, so, I am too. Even if we just looked at US cases, there's not even 1% of the population known to be impacted. This virus is a joke. Which Gov’t is treating it like a joke? The only one who is that I know of is the Orange feller. The State Governors are livid with him about it. Take the known cases and multiply by 2 then do that again 30 times and that is where you will be in a month. The US is already 3rd in the world in KNOWN cases after having only a few pockets of the disease a month ago. Projections are that 30 - 70% of people will be infected during the outbreak. Pretty sure you can do that math.
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Ben
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Posts: 457
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Post by Ben on Mar 24, 2020 3:04:27 GMT -5
Ben and Mank you may not be concerned about the virus. ... You're wrong. I am concerned. I am taking and advising others to take proper precautions. I was the first one in my circuit to come up with a COVID-19 preparation plan for our church and also the first, a few days later, to preemptively cancel all events and services. I'm on the front lines in this in all areas of my life: pastor, AEMT, and National Guardsman. And, as you noted, I will do the funerals for those I know who will die of this. I am disgusted by ignorant and/or stupid people who claim this is nothing. It's not. I've done the research and reviewed the reports, including some I can't discuss here. This is NO JOKE. It's the most serious epidemic we've faced since the Spanish Flu. The low death rate doesn't take into account how many young and healthy people end up needing a respirator to stay alive while they fight the virus. If we run out of ICUs, the death rate will go up. Fast. As it already did in Italy. If we ignore it and go about our lives as if it isn't a threat, we WILL run out of ICU beds. Then it won't seem like a joke anymore, but it'll be far too late. Does this sound like I'm minimizing it?
But there are three things that don't help at all, perhaps even are harmful, and I'll call them out when I see them.
1. Succumbing to fear and despair. Yes, people are going to die. I'm not heartless, simply stating reality. I would rather this virus didn't exist, but because it does, we will not be able to avoid it. People die every day of viruses and all kinds of other things. It sucks, and we prevent it when we can. Despair won't keep people alive or stop the pandemic. Destroying the US/world economy is probably not the best way to do that either. I'm not advocating fatalism, just reality. Living our lives carries risk. We mitigate the risk when possible, but some risk is necessary for life. As an example, we could end car crashes overnight by banning all motor vehicle travel. Doing so would save lives - at current rates, over 35,000 every year. Why don't we do it? The cost is too great - both the cost to our economy and to our liberty. In the same way, locking ourselves in our homes for the next several months is not a feasible solution for this problem. There are things we can and should do. Life shouldn't look exactly the same for the next few months. But panic, hoarding, fearmongering, overreacting, etc. - those are harmful behaviors.
2. Incessant bashing of President Trump. Statements that he's done "nothing" or "doesn't care" are ignorant of facts and just parrot mainstream media talking points. Statements which insult him, "orange", "moron" etc., are disrespectful of the Office of President, rude, unhelpful, and uncalled-for. (I wouldn't let people do that with President Obama either.) True, he doesn't always say things the way I'd like them said. But actions speak louder than words. His actions have been exactly what's needed, even when it was politically unpopular (like closing our border with China or Europe). Further, he's completely right that this is best handled on a state-by-state level. The US is far too big for a one-size-fits-all approach. Even a state like NY is too big - we have everything cancelled, but there are only 10 diagnosed cases in my entire county. If you look through the list of what Biden said should be done, President Trump has already done all of those things. Governor Cuomo praised him - almost made me drop my beer! I find the constant partisan attacks to be less than helpful. I've mostly stopped stating my thoughts about Governor Cuomo, because now isn't the time - even though his recently forced plastic bag ban has been credited with accelerating the spread of COVID-19. I don't agree with all of his actions, but I'm supporting him in this because it's the right thing to do right now. If we all did the same, we might actually be able to get something accomplished. Please note that I have not been a Trump supporter. He was not my first choice, or second, third, fourth, etc. I voted for him over Hillary, that's for sure; lesser of two evils. He's done a good job of winning me over by his actions, but I am no Trump apologist. I just don't like seeing anyone unfairly attacked, especially when the attack doesn't match up with easily researched facts. If people really want to blame someone about this, blame China. They could have contained it; instead for 3 weeks they lied, and then they covered up, and they keep lying and covering up even now, with the mainstream media as their faithful lapdogs.
3. Taking at face value everything that comes out of the media, especially its fearmongering and Republican-bashing. As case in point, today they published a bombshell report talking about COVID-19 living up to 17 days on cruise ship surfaces. If you only read that article, you'd be completely misled. Here's what an actual expert had to say about it. There are hundreds more examples. Today's media exists for two purposes: to make a profit and to get Democrats elected. They will say anything so long as it meets one of those ends. They'll say it even louder if it meets both. While I already said that this is a real threat, I can't help but notice how blowing up this crisis beyond reasonable proportions would likely accomplish both of their stated goals. "Never let a serious crisis go to waste," says Mr. Alinsky.
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Post by martycanuck on Mar 24, 2020 7:15:27 GMT -5
Tough to respect a President who wants to lift restrictions at the cost of millions of lives so the economy might appear to be in good shape when he’s seeking reelection.
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